Finding Empowerment Through Resilient Leadership

What is enablement-minded leadership? How can programs and institutions resist the stigma attached to being promoted to leadership roles and prepare faculty for future success from day one? Join Dr. Allison Case and guest, Dr. Brian Goldstein, Chief Academic Officer and Executive Dean of the College of Rehabilitative Sciences at the University of St. Augustine for Health Sciences, as he shares his personal story about the journey from faculty member to administrator, what he learned along the way, and how he champions identifying others to tap for leadership roles.

Show Notes and Resources:

Brian suggests the following books on leadership:

Bolman and Deal: Reframing Organizations

Bolman & Gallos: Reframing Academic Leadership

Steven Sample: A Contrarian's Guide to Leadership

Jim Collins: Good to Great

Buller: Academic Leadership

Buller: Academic Leadership Day by Day

Anything by Chip and Dean Heath; e.g., Switch; Upstream

Susan Scott: Fierce Conversations; Fierce Leadership

Kim Scott: Radical Candor

Grawe: Demographics and the Demand for Higher Education

Websites:

Chronicle for Higher Education

Inside Higher Education

Education Dive

Transcript

Intro (00:01):

Pedagogy the show that brings education to your ears and Meta mastery to your assessments. Today’s episode covers enablement-minded leadership, and why being promoted in academia shouldn’t make you want to run for the hills. Pedagogo brought to you by ExamSoft. The assessment software that keeps security and integrity in your exams while providing you actionable data for your outcomes. For all of the toughest testing challenges. ExamSoft has you covered

Allison Case (00:31):

Welcome back to another episode of Pedagogo. I'm your host Allison Case, and I'm so glad you tuned in today. You're in for a treat. Today I talk and laugh with Brian Goldstein, the Chief Academic Officer at the University of St. Augustine for Health Sciences, about enablement minded leadership and academia. Is it just us, or is academia one of the few places where being promoted to leadership is reserved for the person who called ‘not it’ last. There's definitely a stigma to being promoted to leadership positions in academia. And as a result, we're missing out on opportunities to get the best out of our students, faculty, staff, and institutions. Listen in today to hear Brian's story of going from faculty member to head honcho by way of a Harvard leadership course that changed everything for him and how now he relishes his role and the positive impact he's able to have at scale. He'll also talk about the succession planning crisis and academia and how it can shortchange great budding leaders from finding roles that are just right. Take a listen.

Allison Case (01:34):

Okay. So, Brian, thank you so much for joining us today. I'd love for you to just kick us off with what do you do on a daily basis?

Brian Goldstein (01:42):

So first thank you for having me. It's an absolute pleasure to be here with you, Allison. So I am Brian Goldstein. I am the executive Dean of the College of Rehab Sciences, which includes programs in occupational therapy, physical therapy and speech, language pathology, and also the University Chief Academic Officer, meaning that I oversee not only the College of Rehab Sciences, but also our College of Health Sciences, which includes nursing, a doctorate of education program and MHA and MHS, a doctor of health science and nursing programs at the University of St. Augustine for Health Sciences. We actually have five campuses in three states, two in Florida, Miami and St. Augustine and thus that's where our name comes from the University of St. Augustine for Health Sciences, two campuses in Texas in Dallas and in Austin and a campus in San Marcos, California. And that's where I am located on the San Marcos, California campus. And I've been with the University of St. Augustine for exactly one year. 

Allison Case (02:52):

Wow. Congratulations.

Brian Goldstein (02:54):

Thank you. It's always good to make it through the first year.

Allison Case (02:58):

That's great. Well, Brian, you're here today to talk to us about enablement minded leadership in academia. And to start, I would just love for you to share with the listeners your story, your path, your transition into academic leadership, and talk to us about kind of what kicked that off and the path that you followed to get where you are today.

Brian Goldstein (03:17):

I think Alison like many of those of us who are academics, who, who end up in administration in leadership, it is often by accident. Uh, we, we don't plan to, to do this. I was having, if you will, your standard faculty academic career, for about 10 years before I even moved into, um, an administrative or leadership position. And again, like many, it started as, as a department chair and not just a department chair, but an interim department chair. Um, a Dean had asked me to fill in for a year as department chair while the department did a search for a permanent replacement. And so, you know, I, I don't know why to be honest with you, he picked me, I don't know. I, you know, my, my joke is always that I was the only one of the faculty that didn't take a step back when he called for volunteers.

Allison Case (04:09):

They were in on it together.

Brian Goldstein (04:11):

Exactly. Yeah. And no, nobody told me what the joke was. No, I didn't, I didn't get the punchline. And so I ended up as, as an interim department chair while we did the search. And so unfortunately the search for that year was, was unsuccessful. So I did a second year as, as an interim department chair. So my foray and my focus on being in administration and leadership was I hated it. I absolutely hated it. Um, I hated it so much that I told the Dean that I would do it a second year, but only if I could spend at least two days a week in what I told him was my ‘real’ office. That is my faculty office that was on the second floor. The chair's office was on the first floor of the building. Um, and so after year two, we did hire a, a so-called permanent, uh, department chair. That didn't go so well. And ultimately I volunteered to be chair again, after that kind of year back in my faculty office, but said to the Dean, I'd only do it if, if he made me the permanent department chair. So that was my initiation into academic leadership.

Allison Case (05:19):

Well, and Brian, what happened in that intervening year, where you were ready to step forward and say, I am willing to do it if this can be a position that I can keep and call mine?

Brian Goldstein (05:43):

So I think a couple of things changed in, in that year that I was not in the position. Um, so even though I wasn't in the position formally, I certainly was assisting the chair on, on a, on a regular basis. There were some weeks when I felt like I was, I was the de facto chair and doing the job, um, because my, you know, my assistance was so common and so regular. Um, and, and I think I was starting to shed the imposter syndrome, right. We find ourselves in a position that we shouldn't be in and we don't know how we got there and we don't deserve it. We don't have enough background skills or knowledge. And, and I think what I saw over that year was that maybe this was a job that I could do, but I certainly felt like there was a, there was a barrier, a filter that I felt I was assessing it, that if I could have the job on a permanent basis, then I could make it my own and grow into it and learn to be a leader at the same time that I needed to lead the department. And so, um, I think it started the evolution that I'm not sure I was even aware of at the time that my entire career was changing to one from a faculty member that did a little bit of being a department chair to a leader who also operated within the confines and the aegis of, of the faculty. My career was changing to the point where it ultimately became my career. As I moved from the chair's position to an associate Dean, a Dean, a Provost, and then Dean and, and, and Chief Academic Officer yet again. Um, and that's been a now, you know, 15 year process to get to this point.

Allison Case (07:36):

Right. Wow. Well, and I think you raised such a good point is maybe one aspect of leadership in academia that we don't appreciate is when we ask faculty to step into leadership positions, we are in essence asking for them to be ready for a career change.

Brian Goldstein (07:53):

And so I think for some to consider the possibility that this might point them on a path that they didn't even know that they wanted to be on, might be satisfying. It might be a window of opportunity that they didn't necessarily see themselves in. I think the other side of that is that most faculty want no part in administration. They want no part in leadership, right. We went through our doctoral programs in order to be educators, to be researchers, to provide service to our community through our profession, to our students. Um, and, and the administration is seen as the dark side, right? You do that. You're completely crossed the Rubicon. I think it needs to be presented as an opportunity to serve. Um, and I think part of what's missing is that a number of years ago, and I read, I read just numerous books on being a department chair. And I was, I was floored by one statistic that, uh, indicated that only about 3-4% of department chairs have any development or training before they step into the chair's office. I know I did. I left work on a Friday as a faculty member and went back in on Monday and went right into, into the chair's office with no training and development. And so I think it's a combination of, of opportunity plus training and development that might put more on the path to consider leadership as a part of, of the world, of, of higher ed and then potentially being a career change down the line. So I'm a faculty member who happens to be the chair. I'm a faculty member who happens to be a Dean or the Chief Academic Officer. And, and I don't want to lose those skills and I don't want to lose that perspective on, on higher ed. But again, I think it's why many, many folks don't even want to consider it. So that lack of, of, of knowledge of what it is and what value it brings. I think there are lots of administrators who don't speak well of, of leadership positions. Um, and so that I think is a signal to, to faculty that they ought to steer clear of even consideration of, of leadership opportunities, you know, outside the classroom; it seems like a management task, right? There's seven boxes this week that I have to check off and it, and it, it, it appears as drudgery. I don't think we speak to or speak up about the opportunity to, to affect students, um, not just for a semester or a year, but for, for a half a decade or a decade. If you're talking about programs that are accredited and, you know, need to change the curriculum, you, you potentially have a legacy that will absolutely post date your retirement or leaving from, from that institution.

Allison Case (10:47):

Yeah, that's right. Wow. You're the scope of your impact multiplied.

Brian Goldstein (10:52):

I think we talk about that enough. That is again, I think I certainly, as a faculty member looked at what the department chair was doing from a very limited point of view, right. And my mindset was, again, I want no part of that. I want to be teaching students. I want to be doing my research. I want to be presenting at conferences and, and writing papers and reviewing articles. I don't want to be doing the class schedule. And, you know, having faculty upset that they have a Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule when they want a Tuesday, Thursday schedule. I think that's a misperception of what the job really is, but it's the most visible, uh, characteristics of the job for many.

Allison Case (11:32):

Right. Well, I'm Brian, I can't help but notice when, when embodying maybe the thoughts and voice of faculty members, I can't help, but hear the word "my" versus when you're talking about or embodying kind of department chair and up, we're talking about "your", and it's just so interesting that I think that is how it's viewed when I'm a faculty member, it’s my work, my contribution.

Brian Goldstein (12:00):

In higher education, the irony is that authority and responsibility are, are in essence, inversely proportional to each other. So as a faculty member, you have a heck of a lot of authority in your class and your research and the service that you want to do, the papers that you want to write, the research that you decide to, to put forward, uh, to present at conferences. Um, and your responsibility really is, is your own by and large, you know, yes, you have to meet certain student department program standards. There is no doubt about it, right? I mean, there are external pressures for sure, but in many ways I would argue in the job I have now I have much more responsibility than I do authority.

Allison Case (12:48):

Wow. That's interesting. So, Brian, what do you think are some of the fixes, or what are some other ways that we can begin to change that?

Brian Goldstein (12:55):

You know, part of that I think Allison is, is to look around at the variety of faculty who have tremendous skills, are highly intelligent, incredibly motivated. Look at the kind of work that they're doing in their classrooms, in their research, on committees, and start to tap people on the shoulder and say, ‘Hey, I have a project that I would like you to, to lead and work on. I've seen that you have been successful in a number of, of different domains. And I think you would be excellent in leading this’, you know, whether it's a department college level, university level project, um, and provide them that opportunity and then the mentorship so that they have, again, the training and development, even if it's simultaneous to the project that you want them to lead. So they don't feel they're an island unto themselves. And then that provides an opportunity for, for me as I work with them, as Sample said, so Steven Sample, the former president of the University of Southern California said, “I work for those who work for me.” So, you know, even if it's a project at a department level, my job is to work for that person. And to help them see opportunities that they might not even realize are part of the skillset that they have, uh, in, in order to potentially move into academic leadership.

Allison Case (14:25):

Wow. Right. So can ask them in a way that doesn't make them automatically recoil and then to support them and partner with them as they kind of go through this process. So they don't feel alone. And as they cultivate those leadership skills or, or strengthen strengths they already have as a preview of what it could be like to serve in some of these higher roles or leadership roles.

Brian Goldstein (14:48):

That's right. And I think part of that is when they have that crisis of confidence, as we all do, when we're going through a large project, as Kanter said, “Everything looks like a disaster in the middle”, right. You will come out of it, but it looked like a disaster in the middle is that you can be there with that person and say, ‘you can do this’. And you know what, even if there's a failure along the way, it is not catastrophic Being able to, um, be resilient in the, in the face of a, of a failure.

Allison Case (15:17):

It sounds like these opportunities also help orient these potential future leaders to the resources they have available to them when failure comes, instead of being thrust into the position and thrust into the spotlight and having to fail on a, on a more global stage.

Brian Goldstein (15:36):

I think that's a great point. And I think, you know, it's interesting, because I don't know that I've thought of this before you said it Allison, which, which is, I think often people look at that initial leadership role that is, and again, typically it's the department chair and think that person is operating in a silo. There is nobody who is there supporting that person. And I don't want to, I don't want to be in that chair's role in that office because there's nobody to support me. You know, you have one foot in the faculty and one foot in the, in the so-called administration and that's a tough, that's a very tough line to walk. And so if you feel like I'm, I'm in this liminal state, I'm, I'm neither here nor there, and you're not going to be supported, why in the world would you want to go in that position? So you can find ways to obviate kind of that mindset or those mindsets. I think we can, we can have more individuals who will consider such positions and then also be more successful at them simultaneously.

Allison Case (16:38):

Have you been able to see this firsthand? Do you have success stories or instances where these projects have led to that cultivation and attitude change, I think, or, or, um, acknowledgement of a shift in career?

Brian Goldstein (16:51):

Well, look, I, I will say I'm, I'm an example of, of that myself again, I, I absolutely wanted no part of, of administration of, of leadership. And then, you know, the more experiences I had along with the invaluable opportunity I had to attend the Harvard Management Development program was transformative. So, and I've seen every point along the continuum, you know, I've, I've tried to, to practice what I'm preaching and tapping people on the shoulder and some have enjoyed the opportunity, but that's, as far as they want to go, they don't want a different kind of career and, and others have taken advantage of, of that opportunity and gone on to increase responsibility in, in leadership.

Allison Case (17:35):

Right. Well, and what a wonderful way to offer that to your faculty members, if they do, in fact, discover I'm not ready for this, they, that they don't have to feel like they were failures. They championed their project, succeeded for their short-term objectives, and can go back feeling like they've contributed instead of feeling like they failed.

Brian Goldstein (17:54):

Right, and that's, that's what you hope. And, and, and again, that's how I was feeling the first two years, which was, I, I can't wait to get back to, and again, I did keep calling it my, my ‘real job’ as opposed to my ‘fake job’, which was, again, this imposter-ish attempt to be a leader in an academic department for which I was woefully un-, not even under prepared, but, but unprepared. But, you know, I was fortunate that I worked with, with deans who allowed me to grow into those positions, which I think is another important attribute and aspect of, of leadership in general, which is we need to give individuals opportunity, time, development, training, support, cajoling, to grow into their positions. Because I, I truly believe that, you know, if I'm going to take a position for which I'm, I'm already totally qualified and there's no room to grow well, that's not fun or interesting, right. What's the opportunity for me to grow in, into that role. And we have to give people the latitude and patience to do that.

Allison Case (19:02):

So, Brian, you, you mentioned that that Harvard Management Development program was transformative. What was it you think that made it so transformative and could you share maybe three, um, lessons that changed you while you were there?

Brian Goldstein (19:20):

So I think one reason why the Harvard program was, was so transformative, um, was that, um, it, it certainly sent a signal to me by somebody that I was worthy to be supported for, for that kind of program. And again, I think I was still grappling with, could, could I really do this? Was I being successful? Was I having the outcomes? And was it something that I wanted to do in the future? And so I was contemplating somewhat of a crossroads as to whether I was going to move headlong into a position as, as a Dean and think about larger leadership roles or was, was I ready to say I appreciated the opportunity? I certainly grew as, as a leader, I grew as a faculty member. I grew as a human being, but did I want to resume my primary role as, as a faculty member? And the two-week intensive program showed to me and revealed to me that I, I was changing careers with a catalyst because it's an intensive, immersive experience. And so all you do for two weeks is you think about leadership, there's sort of no way to, to avoid it. So, you know, for me, it was the time I needed, the opportunity that I needed, and the ability to reflect on it if this was a change I was going to make and in my career. I think the second thing that, that I was able to get out of it was, I felt like so much of what I was doing was from, from intuition, because I didn't have that knowledge grounding background, that theoretical framework that really put parameters around the leadership work that I was doing. And I was operating on, on intuition. And what that program gave me was the move in the earthquake-type change from intuition to intention that I was able to then articulate why I wanted to be in academic leadership and not just, and not just operate more from my gut or intuition.

Allison Case (21:20):

Instead of feeling your way through the dark turn on the light and make a plan. Yeah.

Brian Goldstein (21:23):

You know, it's the old adage, you know, that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, but, but the ellipsis is, you know, you hope that light, isn't an oncoming train. And, and I think for maybe the first time I realized that the light really was showing me a different path that was not as a foreboding formidable or scary as maybe I thought it was.

Allison Case (21:45):

Anything else that came out of that Harvard class?

Brian Goldstein (21:48):

I think if, if there is a third aspect of, of the value of that program, it has been some lifelong colleagues and contacts that I still lean lean on and lean into to this day. So in leadership roles to have those colleagues that you can lean on, um, almost at any time and pick up the phone and say, hey, I'm, I'm dealing with a difficult problem. I just need somebody who's been through it or is going through it to, to have an ear and hear me out. And then you can, you know, you can almost pilot or kind of play in the sandbox, your, your approach to it, with somebody who is going through it or has been going through it. And it provides that other level of support.

Allison Case (22:35):

So Brian, to pivot, I've heard you say that we should really be thinking of these positions as leadership positions, not management positions. What's the difference?

Brian Goldstein (22:44):

Well, as I think about your question, I'm reminded of Harry Truman's quote, and he said, "Leadership involves getting others to willingly move in a new direction in which they're not naturally inclined to move on their own." So for me, that encapsulates some of, of what I believe about leadership. And so if you're going to move people to an area that they're not naturally inclined to go then you want somebody who can look to that horizon and see vistas that maybe others didn't even know were there. Now, clearly you also then need a tactician to get you from point A to point B. Sure. But again, I come at this from the perspective of my thinking that being a leader in higher ed was all about the management. It was all about creating class schedules and making sure that I had, I mean, how often do you hear that term? It's not even an administration, but administrivia with an amalgamation of administration and trivia and trivial. That is it's unimportant. So I realized that these are our feed relationships. You have to do the leader and to do the leader means you have to do administrative tasks. You cannot offload those to somebody else. You've got to dig in. If one's mindset is that being a leader is only about these trivial tasks, then it's not understanding the importance and value in the fact that leadership matters.

Allison Case (24:20):

So Brian, as you lay out your approach or what can be our approach to creating opportunities and exposing faculty members to these opportunities and perhaps birthing in them, um, an interest in what could end up being a position in leadership, when should a new Chair or a new Dean or a new Provost start that process, when should they start planning for their replacement?

Brian Goldstein (24:46):

Day one.

Allison Case (24:47):

Wow.

Brian Goldstein (24:47):

Succession planning needs to start immediately. And I didn't know that in my first chair position. So one of the things that I started doing out of luck or fiat or happenstance was, I didn't really know the cadence of the work that a department chair was going to do over a year period. And so I just started keeping an Excel spreadsheet month by month. And I would write down not quite everything that I did that month, but certainly important events, happenings, reports that needed to be done. And I've now done that in every single leadership position that I've had. And so that almost serves as my planning document, my succession document for whoever will come after me. I think the, you know, the other thing that's important to do particularly in this electronic age is to ensure that one's electronic documents are available and well-organized. So I also go into every job thinking how I'm going to organize all of my electronic documents.

Allison Case (25:52):

I tell you what Brian, when you post your next job posting, you're going to have a long line when people hear that you are doing this preparation for them, but it's a gift you give the person that's coming after you. I think it's great.

Brian Goldstein (26:04):

But again, I think if, if one thinks about their leadership position, as it's not about you. It's about it's about everybody else. Then your mind naturally will turn to how do I set up the organization for future success? And again, one aspect of that is, is absolutely a succession planning. So, you know, you don't have the person walking into your office devoid of, of information or what you've been doing for the entire time that you've been in that position.

Allison Case (26:37):

Well, gosh, one of my questions for you is going to be, how have you managed to bring a sense of humanity to your role? And I think you've just nailed it. You're describing servant leadership. I'm here to serve others. And if that's not bringing an element of humanity to a leadership role, I don't know what is.

Brian Goldstein (26:52):

I borrowed this from Steven Sample. You know, I believe in the case method, you know, copying and stealing everything (CASE) everything with references, to know where it came from. But, you know, he said one of his important pillars is work for the people who work for you. You know, my job, my vision is to lower barriers so that other people can do their work better.

Allison Case (27:13):

Well, Brian, in the little bit of time we have left, I'd love to hear from you. What do you think the role of assessment is in leadership or leadership cultivation?

Brian Goldstein (27:22):

So, um, I'm glad you phrased the question the way that you did, Allison you didn't say "Is assessment important to the work of understanding and evaluating leaders" right? You said, “How do we do this?” And I think that's the starting point. And I think about, uh, the Cheshire cat in Alice in Wonderland, you know, if you don't know where you're going, any path will do. And that's a problem from scenario planning and strategic planning and the work of, of leaders. And so assessment has to occur at multiple levels. I think it's critically important that every year the leader herself or himself have a set of goals that they are going to work on that are more focused on them as, as leaders, along with division goals. And whether it's the department or the college or the entire university, along with institutional goals, those should be quote measurable, unquote. I think there's a misunderstanding of how goals can be measured. I don't necessarily mean that everything has to be subjected to Likert scales and parametric statistics, but we do have to understand and know how we know we've been successful. What does success look like that we have to know that our approach is working and we need some evidence quote, unquote of the fact that we've been successful in, in the work that we're doing. Right,

Allison Case (28:44):

Right. What we've done. Right. That's so important. Brian, where can listeners go for more information?

Brian Goldstein (28:52):

So I think there are now there's a multitude of books on academic leadership. Um, and, and they're easy to, to, to find, um, what I will say is the, the book that was transformative for me in my journey, because again, it gave me that framework that, that I feel like I didn't have, um, was Bolman and Deal's “Reframing Organizations.” Um, and, and so I might suggest that, uh, listeners start with that as, as a, as a, as a framework, as an architecture or a theory, which whichever word, uh, underlying guiding principles to leadership in general. Um, and then look at the myriad of, uh, books that are available, um, on, on academic leadership. The other thing that I would suggest is that listeners and leaders ought to read books at a level higher than they currently are, and by level, I mean, level on the org chart. So if you were a department chair, read books about being a Dean, if you're a Dean read the one or two books, and there are not many about being a Provost or a Chief Academic Officer, if you're a provost read books about being President. Because again, I think it's important to get a sense of a vista, um, in a balcony view of, of you and the role that you're in, but also what the person to whom you report is dealing with that comes from reading leadership books at that level above where you're situated on, on the org chart.

Allison Case (30:29):

Love that love that easy accessible, and so insightful.

Brian Goldstein (30:34):

Leadership matters.

Allison Case (30:35):

It does. Wow. I love that. Thank you so much for your time. It was really just a pleasure.

Brian Goldstein (30:41):

Well, thank you, Allison, it's been a pleasure to be on the podcast and a pleasure speaking with you.

Allison Case (30:48):

My thanks again to Brian for his time and for sharing with us his own academic journey into leadership, as well as the thoughts, feelings, hurdles, and helps faced by many in academia. I had so much fun talking to him about what can feel like a taboo subject. The message that resonates with me the most is the importance of recognizing, stepping into a role of leadership in academia is a major career change. This is a big deal. It's leaving behind a career marked by one's own research, teaching conferences and papers to pursue the service of others, servant leadership. And how about Brian's discussion of the stigma of leadership in academia, that going into leadership is going to the quote unquote dark side. Can you relate? There does seem to be this feeling that for many leadership is something to be avoided because it takes away from their real jobs. Brian said there's several things that can contribute to this belief. It could be the way that current leaders talk about the role, the perceived lack of support, the perception that leaders are alone and in a silo or a lack of clarity of what the role really entails. It's often perceived as administrivia. Why would someone walk away from their life's work, where there's agency and empowerment to fix the class schedule or tell their peers "no"? For strong leaders to want to step into these positions. There needs to be an appreciation for the role they can play in affecting the lives of their peers and students for years to come. This is where current leaders could play a role in communicating why they chose leadership and the value those roles can bring. Brian discussed the importance of making sure our next leaders are given time and experience to realize their own skills and abilities that could make them effective leaders. In fact, he named three things to give potential leaders for them to succeed. One, offering faculty opportunities, to serve in a leadership role without leaving their current positions. For some will reveal the strengths and potential they have to serve as potential leaders. And for others, these opportunities will reveal they don't want to take that next step, and they'll be glad to be back to their real jobs. Next potential leaders need mentorship, someone to lean on and ask for help as they try their hand at leadership and finally resources to succeed. As Brian said, we need to give individuals opportunity, time, development, training, support, and cajoling to grow into their positions. I'm so glad I got to talk to Brian today and give a voice to some of the thoughts that many in academic leadership are having. There's an opportunity to adopt some of the leadership development techniques and succession planning we see in private sector. Doing so communicates the value of the role to the institution and the value of the leader being placed in the role. The result can be far reaching and deeply felt until next week Education nation.

Outro (33:28):

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